This interview has been published by Anshi Mudgal and The SuperLawyer Team
Let’s understand why and how you chose to pursue a career in law while you had already completed your Bachelor’s in English from Delhi University?
It’s a very interesting question though. I never thought of becoming a lawyer, but I had this idea in my mind that I wanted to do something which has a larger public interest.
It was my father who wanted me to become a lawyer. I was a UPSC aspirant and I used to say, this time I’m sure that I’ll clear UPSC. And he used to say that you will become a very good lawyer.
So it was his inspiration and the journey when I entered into law. And when I did my first internship, it was at the Delhi Commission for Women.
I had goosebumps when I went there for the first time. And for the first week, I could not sleep. I used to say to my mom that I never thought that women are in such a bad condition. What I was seeing was a nine-month pregnant lady saying that her husband pushed her back, threw her out of the house, and beat her so much that she ran away. Another female was raped by ten men. She had married one, and he just captured her in her home, and she was being raped daily by ten people.
She said that she had just run out of that place. So that sort of complaint was coming from very basic people who never knew what law was, who never knew what resort they had or where they could go and complain. And when I saw that this power a lawyer has, this knowledge a lawyer has, any female lawyer or a male lawyer can deliver this justice or help in taking that path, this internship changed my outlook. And this was the reason that I decided I will not go for judiciary, I will not go for UPSC, but I will go for litigation.
During the very early stages of your legal career, what kind of experiences do you see have shaped your thoughts in relation to the kind of practice that you want to take forward because you are doing something very unusual? Why? Because your points towards bringing in that social justice in society are very different. And I really would request you to bring in those aspects which were so inspiring for me. And I really don’t want to push anything, but I just want to understand how you came to that thought process because it’s not easy for anyone to just give up something so big and plan something to do for society that easily.
So basically, I had a plain paper when I entered into litigation. No one from my family, no one from my in-laws, no background from lawyers or litigants to the nearest or the far more relatives I could see. I had never experienced or listened to any lawyer or their experience. I just did law and I came as a practitioner.
But as soon as I came, I realized that this is the only field which is gender neutral. Gender neutral in the sense that the hard work a male has to do, the same a female has to do.
You have to earn your client on your own. You have to work on your own. Suppose I say today that I want to practice in the field of IPR or I want to practice in the corporate field, but I want to be in litigation. That means I should have my own clients. But then I’m getting divorce cases, I’m getting property disputes, depending on the social exposure that I have or the client base or the people who know me as now becoming a lawyer. So the first and foremost thing I realized after becoming a lawyer is that you cannot choose your profession, the profession chooses you.
That means the field you can’t choose, the field will choose you. Otherwise, in a job in various law firms, you can apply for a job in which you are interested. But becoming a proper advocate, practicing independently as a litigant, you have to wait for your clients. Then, when I say it is a gender neutral process, a client comes to you, a client doesn’t bother if you are not feeling well, you are married, you have shifted to a new place, you have kids, you don’t have kids, you’re pregnant, you’re not pregnant. Doesn’t matter.
For them, they need the delivery of their work. Doesn’t matter whether you’ve eaten or not. And the same things apply to a male. They don’t bother if there’s some mishap in the family, if they’re struggling with something, or if they don’t have people to come. Whatever the problem a male faces, the same problem and even more a female has to face. So I understood that I can’t cry like a crybaby. I have to make sure that I have my own setup.
I have my own work culture. I have to set my own standards, and I have to start working the way every second person in this profession is working. Every colleague is working with the same passion that I am working with. What difference do I have to offer to my clients? I should trust them.
I should be loyal to their work. I should be readily available to them. These are very important points. It’s very unfortunate that I’m saying this, but clients come to me with this problem that their lawyer is not picking up the call. It is very shocking because taking a case means taking the whole life of an individual. So this moral social obligation that we as lawyers have, ethics also, we know what our ethics say. But fortunately or unfortunately, whatever the circumstances are, I can’t comment on that.
But these are three to four very essential things as a lawyer irrespective of whether you are a male or a female, you have to face.
But when I went to the court, I saw that actually the condition, the infrastructure is very poor.
I strived in the chamber for almost four or five years. I worked from the chamber, and what I realized was that there were no basic amenities, no washroom facilities. If a female is pregnant, then she might have some medical condition if she’s using those washrooms on a daily basis. And when it comes to hygiene, it was very bad. And with respect to females, there’s another factor of hygiene. It was very bad. And with respect to females there’s another factor of regular day-to-day monthly hygiene and basic facilities and amenities, but all of them were lacking.
I realized that one of my colleagues, she started practicing with me. She got married, she was blessed with a baby girl, and then she was nowhere to be seen in the court. I asked her, why aren’t you coming?
So she said that my baby is too small, and coming to court means you have to start by 9 in the morning, and you don’t know whether you will be reaching back by 8 or 9 or 10. The time is not limited. And I can’t leave work. There is no facility in the court where I could come with the baby and use a creche facility, leave her, do my work, and go back. And this is not about the Honorable Supreme Court or Honorable Delhi High Court. The basic infrastructure at the district court level, where most of the females are working and being independent lawyers, they get cases, independent cases, that means they have their own client base. So they have to first start with district court only. Nobody will give you a direct SLP of the Supreme Court.
So they have to struggle for that. And with the gap of the maternity time period, their family also says that you can’t take the child, what are you earning? It doesn’t make sense because those first five years are pretty hard for every lawyer, either male or female. And when we see that there are females of 20 to 25 years, 30 years of age groups from 20 to 30 years, and then you see females from roughly around 40 and above because in those 10 years, most of the females are engaged in their household activities.
So for that, I observed that in order to sustain in this field, every female has to find a way out. First, it’s better to establish yourself, and it’s very important that as a female you have a better family who understands you, after marriage and before marriage, who understands your work, respects it, and helps cater to those four to five years of growing up and understands your development and growth.
So the challenges of being a female lawyer are very interesting, and it’s very deep. And I enjoy those challenges. And then I see myself that I have actually come out of it, so I feel that it’s worth living.
My next question would be, how do you see all these kind of challenging impacts help you either get better perspective towards law or help you get clients or help you do the networking, because all of these things at the end of the day end up either having a better network which will bring in a long term of change or have better clients who may or may not bring in that particular change.
So how do you see your practice moving towards a specific area of such sorts which actually points out such important things that are not there. That is basic infrastructure, just to practice. So how do you see yourself in times to come?
See, what future to predict I don’t know, but what I can say is it has made me a better human being in that perspective because being a lawyer, being from a well off family, or a family who promotes females to get educated and also in my next family where I am married. They also promote females to be educated, to go out and to have work.
She’s struggling that there are no washrooms in the capital of Delhi in the main courts where almost five to ten lakh people are coming on a daily basis. And again, I’m not talking about Honorable Delhi Court and Honorable Supreme Court. They have very good facilities.
But when we come to district court, I can’t say what Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Punjab, Haryana district courts are to offer to the lawyers. But when I see that there’s no creche facility, no washroom facility.
I can feel that a female who’s not empowered, who’s not having that support from the family, who is not educated, now they have to face daily life problems.
Their husband might die and they might end up in domestic violence disputes with their in-laws.
Or they have husbands who are not supportive. Or the family, they got married and she has to run off and she might be facing some other issues from the family or a girl who has taken a step out and she got married but it doesn’t work the way she had thought. And now she wants to explore legal remedies.
So, since India has so much population, and the population has so much thought process and every individual is different, I feel that this experience which I had in my past five, six years, it not only evolved me as a person but also gave me a thought process that how much a female or a male or a person on daily basis is struggling every day going out and earning for the family and then facing legal issues, what all they have to experience. So when I look down on myself for the next five to ten years, I see that I have to make sure that those people who are actually loyal to their work, who are actually loyal to the system, who actually look at justice as God. They get what law has provided in its books, and it should not be just a book, it should be a delivery system. And we being the representative, we should deliver it to those people.
So, my journey as a whole has started from district court and then High Court and then Supreme Court. If I had gotten a golden plate, I would have started from Supreme and I could have not seen what cross examination is. I could have never seen what evidence is, what are the documents that need to be added in the file, what all evidence I need, and what is the written statement that I have to file.
Or what are the basic ingredients that plaint should have. This is what I have learned from my clients. They have told me that, you know, this document needs to be added because it has this relevance. But when I look into SLPs what I see is down paper trail. Oh, in district court, this paper was not there. Now our case is weak.
So a well learned, educated lawyer should come to district court, they should practice there, and then they should proceed to Honorable High Court, to Honorable Supreme Court, and this should be the step. But nowadays, the generation is that as soon as they do law, they feel that we are lawyers of suits and we just have to jump into some lavish kind of practice. We will get some fame. I don’t know what they think of it.
Actually, they should come to district court and they should understand what a life of a lawyer and clients are.
How does the court function? Very interestingly, I would say, I was in the Rouse Avenue Court. We had one argument in the CBI matter and one of the senior advocates from Maharashtra was there, and I was addressing readers of some work and I said I’ll ask Alhmad. So the senior advocate said, who’s Alhmad? So I said that there is this person who looks into the court’s day to day activity. So he said, but in Maharashtra we don’t call him Alhmad. So how does the court practices vary from state to state?
Even I would not know. I go to a new place, what a reader is called, and when we go to Ghaziabad court, a reader is called Babu.
But being an independent practitioner, I should be aware of all these practices. Even if my clerk would come to me and say that, you know, this much is the cost, I should know that I have gone through all these things. I know how much it may cost. So a lawyer should be the clerk first, then should be an intern, and then should be a litigant.
And this is what I have learned through my journey till now.
Let’s move on and understand certain challenges that you may have encountered while you were dealing with sexual harassment complaints or administrative inquiries during your representation of plans or universities per se, especially University of Delhi.
How have you strategized that and how have you overcome those kinds of challenges?
So I’m not specifically talking about any university per se, but we have to understand the importance of the POSH act. Unfortunately, most of the people are not understanding what POSH act is about and why the POSH act was born.
So in that case, what happens is females are using it, first of all, and also misusing it. So in every sort of institution, administration, these are first and foremost important things that we make sure to understand the genuineness of the case. Secondly, the males are offensive in that case, what they say is, we’re also harassed, this is what I face in most of the training sessions. What the male’s outlook is with respect to the POSH act. We are also being harassed. There are fake female complaints. There are administrative issues with respect to promotions and with respect to work culture, with respect to the hours that they have to work and they do not feel like working.
They file a complaint under ICC, so even males are not understanding where that line is being crossed and it becomes a case of POSH act.
Third and the foremost thing is the ICC committee itself, they’re not even aware what is procedure first of all, they feel they are not even comfortable with the environment that, if a complaint has come how it should be dealt with. Either they panic. What I have observed in most of the corporate companies, what they do is without getting into investigation, they suspend the accused or the respondent. And this is a very dangerous situation. Just in order to prevent your name, your company’s name, you suspended a person without getting to know what has actually happened, without even investigating.
So what’s important is the awareness. Training of POSH is a very fundamental and important aspect that is ignored by most of the institutions until and unless there are complaints which have come. Then they will recommend their final finding that POSH sessions are recommended.
But it is not similar to any gender committee. It’s not similar to any disciplinary committee. It has its legal liability. It has its legal obligation that has to be complied and the birth of the POSH is because of Bhavari Devi case and Nirbhaya rape case.
That is to be understood. It cannot be compared with a male harassment or disciplinary committee harassment. It’s very different perspective and it evolves around that definition of sexual harassment only and those points only determine the complaint. So these are the challenges which I have faced while dealing specifically with the POSH act and the complaints before ICC most of the time.
I would now like to ask you about establishing your law firm at such an early stage. You have made NS Solicitors and after working for such a short span of time, you have built a name for yourself. What do you see or what plans do you have as a mission and vision for your firm, along with the kind of causes that you are fighting for, or you are bringing in those topics, which are absolutely required.
So how do you plan to take forward your law firm, along with the passion that you have for social causes?
One thing which I feel as a lawyer is that a law firm is mandatory for me.
All the juniors, all the associates associated with me, I feel that they should be independent and their independence is not in association with me. Whenever associates or an intern come to me, first and foremost I say you are not here as a permanent member.
You have created your own practice. How can I help you? You have to take my help. You have to go out in public. You have to create your own face. This is how I started. This is how my seniors helped me, and this is how I should help you. This is my obligation that you are being associated with me.
And I should make sure that you have your own life ahead. So the concept of a law firm for me is that all the associates with me, I am associate and they are also associates. I never call myself a founder. I never call myself head of the team. If I am working on a case, I make sure one associate with me is working so both are equal at the stage. I never named my law firm as Niyati Sharma and Associates because not all of us are associated with my name. If they as a lawyer are dealing with their client, they have my office, they have their law firm name, and they can have their card made, they can use their file which has NS Solicitors, and they have their own name on their card.
They’ve got their name on their file. They feel independent, they don’t need infrastructure, they don’t need money for that. So, the idea of a law firm is only for that. Another reason for the law firm is that I have different sects of corporate, civil, criminal, and we all have the head of all the sects and specifically with the IPR. So, I had one of my associates who started his practice from a very early stage. But he was not sure where he had to go and how he could explore cases, how he could get more cases.
So for him specifically, we highlighted a few aspects that were he’s coming from, where his family belongs to, what sort of work he’s into. So what we used to do is, I used to give them Saturday off and they have Sunday off. So on Saturday, they had to go to their gatherings.
They had to meet people and then distribute their cards and tell them that I have my office at this place and if you have any issues with respect to your work, you can let me know. It took him six months. And those regular practices like going on weekends, going to some meetings, some family gatherings, social gatherings.
What I have seen usually is nine to eight associates working, no Saturday or only Sunday off, and it’s a packed job. But whenever my associates touch wood as of now, if they ask for a leave, I make sure they have to inform me beforehand. So, we designed their work in such a manner that it took him six months and one year or so, and gradually his first case came.
And, whenever a first case comes, we make sure we have a cake cutting ceremony or we distribute sweets for our associates. And then randomly another case came, and then another case came. Now that the associate has his own office in Delhi, but he is again associated with us till now.
So, this is how I feel. I do not want to restrict any newcomer. They have their own life. They have their own family. They have their own perspective of looking into society and why should that perspective be limited to my office only.
So I’ll have 10 offices, then it would not be only my single office. So, this is the way I function my law firm, and today I’m proud to say that I have associates and juniors from all over India. From Kolkata, from Nagaland, from Haryana, from Delhi. Those who can obviously travel to Delhi and want to work.
I am open to every sort of work culture just because of the reason that everyone should get equal opportunity and they should get that scope of practicing in Delhi. And they should not be held back that I don’t have anyone, I do not have anyone in Delhi, where should I go. So this is how I want my law firm to be. Today also, when I see interns, I make sure that not specifically Delhi, I have students from different, different parts of states. If they’re applying to me through email, I very proudly welcome that. Just because of the reason that they’re doing so much hard work that they’re finding out the advocates online, and then they’re applying. They’re not coming through their father’s call or through their uncle’s call or through someone. So this is how an experienced advocate who has seen all the journeys should treat youngsters.
Such a positive and noble gesture that you are imparting on so many people. It is already bringing in a lot of change and I feel like it’ll be bringing in a lot more change if everyone whosoever is associated with you, expands their services and their purpose. It’ll be very influential for social causes as well as the practice itself.
So, do you think in doing all of this, has social media contributed in any way, bringing in these kinds of changes, bringing in your awareness aspect in front of the society? And how has that helped you establish even more authority and authenticity in your practice?
Let me say that social media and online practices have evolved a lot. When I started there was no social media. Post Covid, there was actually the beginning of online virtual hearing. And I do remember that when I was in the early phase of my pregnancy, I had an abortion though. During that time, I was running to court and I was sweating and I was out of breath.
And I felt that I might have to end my practice here because I can’t come for another few months in such a conducive environment where I have to run and reach the court. I have to park my car and have to run, move fast and my items are about to reach, this is how lawyers are working, you know, very fast, super fast, but then gradually after 2021, by the end of 2021. There was a transformation to virtual hearing.
And this empowered mostly females who are having maternity issues, who are having health issues, who are having their young ones, and they cannot travel that often that a male advocate can. Obviously, they can go to their office for a few hours and then come back home but they have virtual hearing. If the child is not feeling well, if their husband is not feeling well, if someone in the family is not feeling well, they can take that time, which is involved in traveling and through virtual hearing, they can do that. So the litigation has empowered females a lot via virtual hearing.
Specifically, those females who are around the age of 25 to 40, they can establish their litigation. They can have their family. They can have their clients. Even a female in one room setup at their home can establish her litigation with a virtual hearing setup. She need not go to the chamber, she need not go to office, she need not join another person’s office just because she does not have her own setup.
So, the virtual hearing has increased the participation of women. So. I have this data which says that only 15% of the females used to practice when there was no virtual hearing, but after virtual hearing, the participation of females has increased a lot. Now, a female doesn’t take a break of even six months. So virtual hearing has evolved so much that it has empowered the females.
When it comes to social media, we see that there are so many reels that advocates are making these days, so when I say that while I was starting my practice, I had one case in a month. And another 29 days, I had nothing to do. I used to call people or talk with my friends, or I used to think of it. Now I don’t have time. But when I see those youngsters who have just done their law or are into practice, they started developing their social media to that level. Now they have thousands, lakhs of followers.
And gradually they’ll get work from that space. So, now the client base is not just limited to your near and dear ones. The client base has now changed to social media also.
You get a lot of work from social media and this has empowered those who might not have a circle where they might get a case, but they have that idea where they can deal with artificial intelligence, they can deal with space law, they can deal with environmental law, they can deal with sports law, which is not a common practice when it comes to civil or the criminal sort of work.
So, social media, I guess this is the way it has impacted.
So while you were talking about all these burning issues, I would say, they bring in a lot of food for thought, especially for young lawyers who are starting not only their career, but their lives as well. What is your take on maternity leaves or rather parental leave or paternity leave? How do you see that will bring in more workforce back if one gets ample amount of leave after having a baby?
So this issue was raised by one of the advocates, before the Honorable High Court of Delhi. And it was observed thereby that advocate is a professional-based service and therefore there is no need for maternity leaves. But I would like to add to that, that it’s not just the professional-based services, rather for a female who’s an independent advocate, who is appearing before the court and having a good amount of attendance. The bar should take that criteria in that if you are having supposedly 20 appearances in a year and you have to take maternity leave. So the bar should give a stipend of let’s say 5 thousand, 10 thousand, so that she can take care of herself and her baby during those six months when she’s off from her work. Even the family won’t say that you are not getting anything, being a lawyer.
If you would’ve got a government job, it would’ve been a better position, what are you getting from being a lawyer? So in that case, a small support from the bar will help the females to get out of the six months phase, and then gradually she can start the practice. But when as a female we see that we do not have any support, even if taking leaves, then the gap from going out of career and the line of going out of career starts.
So I think maternity for females is an important aspect, which I think the bar should take that decision just like they had helped in COVID providing stipend to those young advocates who were not doing that good and required some basic stipend. Similarly, those females who are not from that well-off family or they need support to establish their career, they can have this six months stipend. A specific amount should be decided and they should have an attendance prior to practicing or they should have an attendance continuously so that they are eligible for the maternity leaves or the parental leave, let’s say.
You mentioned the bar’s role during COVID, how do you see bar associations, both state and national, contributing to the lives of lawyers in India, especially in promoting gender equality? Given the lack of basic amenities like toilets and maternity support, what role should the bar play, and how does this compare to international bar practices?
So I think now the bar has also become a very strong, opinionated platform where the lawyers and the youngsters are getting into.
Let me tell you, with respect to the Delhi High Court elections, this time there were more recorded voters than ever before. So the participation of advocates is increasing. Similarly, the youngsters are coming into the bar elections. So now the perspective of the bar has changed a lot and the bar has a very important role to play with respect to the basic amenities, the facilities, the outlook, the perspective of lawyers, and what are the challenges the lawyers are facing. It is the bar that takes it up. So, when it comes to the international community how they make sure that the facilities are there,
The perspectives are there. I must tell you, it is the first time that female reservation in the bar came up this time. So the role of the bar has evolved because there were no females, so there were no requirements, there was no urge. So we are at a revolutionary stage with respect to the bar also.
The representation of females has increased. The candidates you may see there are so many females now coming up. In campaigning, there are so many females involved. So now the bar has an important role to play with respect to the basic amenities, the facilities. And now the bar is coming online through social media and telling that these are all the things we have done in the court.
So very interestingly, I’ve seen the president of Delhi High Court or the elected bars of Saket Court, let’s say Dwarka Court. Now they are coming up with what they have done.
Just on the first day of their bar being elected, they come and say that these are the things that we have done. They’re now accountable to lawyers through the social platform also. So that is the reason I’m saying that only the bar can take this issue ahead with respect to maternity and paternity leaves.
Since we have already discussed all these things, all the advice that you have given, we would request you to impart some more wisdom and give some golden nuggets for the aspiring law students who want to build such a kind of social impactful legal career as you are making.
Particularly in the kind of fields that you are interested in that is gender justice, legal policy, public interest litigation, and other social causes which will bring in long-term change.
I would like to say to my young fellows who are now entering into the field or will enter into the field very soon.
I have always seen a few female advocates and a few female judges who had all the things in their life, all the comforts, all the facilities, but they dedicated their life to social work. I might point out a few judges whom I really admire Justice Swarna Kanta Sharma, she has published so many books.
She actually works for the justice of the females. She has worked from Delhi courts to Delhi High Court, and she’s now continuously working for the females. Justice Bela Trivedi, she has worked so much for the cause of females. So I would like to say that first, you have to empower yourself. If you feel that you want to contribute to society,
The first and foremost thing is to make sure that you have your hold on your profession, and through your profession, you have to deliver into society. And this is how all the successful males and females in this field are working. And secondly, you have to target your career and divide it in three-year spans. First three years, you should have a target, next three years, you should have a target. First three years, you should have a target that people should know you. After people should know you, after three years, those people should get back to you. You have to make sure that if there is an advocate, your name should come to their mind.
And then comes the golden phase next three years and you will not know how, after 10 years, you are into those top 10 lawyers. But you have to make sure as a litigant, it’s not a piece of cake that you are entering with lavish gowns, flowing and photographs. This is a very beautiful way to display your profession, but your objective should be clear, your target should be clear that first three days all my people should know that I’m an advocate. You should not expect anything else more than that. And once you’re an advocate and people are coming back to you, then you’re a lawyer. You have established yourself in your field. So this is my message to all the young generation. See what all successful people have done, learn from their mistakes, and then decide how you will be taking your five years ahead.
And one thing more as an advocate, when I started, people used to say it’ll take you five years to establish. I used to say they’re very slow people. They don’t know how to establish themselves. But when I came into this field, I understood why they used to say five years. It is not that you won’t get work till five years. You will get work.
The pace of the work will be very slow. You’ll have to go through a lot of patience and then things will fall into place.
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