This interview has been published by Anshi Mudgal and The SuperLawyer Team

Having graduated from Hidayatullah National Law University, Raipur, what was your experience of getting into an NLU, and was law always the career path you envisioned for yourself?
I got into a NLU in the pre-CLAT era (2005-06) so it was a very different experience back then. Hailing from a small-town, there was a lot of misinformation as to what a 5-year course was like. I remember telling my parents that I want to do law and their reaction was “why would you want to do that. You are good at studies and law is for people who cannot do anything else.” However, I was somehow able to convince them and then came the most difficult part, applying to the institutions. At that time each institution used to have their own selection process. A different exam for each institution. I remember giving at least 12 exams in one season (April-June). I am sure I missed many others.
As regards the exams, most were MCQ based, except a few. And what I realised was that I was a good student mainly in the eyes of my parents. Despite giving 12 exams I got into only a handful and none of the top few. Thankfully, I got into HNLU which happens to be in Raipur which in turn happens to be my hometown too. In a way I was fortunate to enjoy both the campus life on weekdays as well as home-cooked food on weekends.
When it comes to law as a career option, I was (like any other kid in their school days) mostly confused about my career. I was brought up in a joint family so I had already seen some of my siblings/ cousins pursue their careers in medicine, engineering and management. However, none had pursued law by that time. As usual I was mostly inclined towards a career in Engineering (was already pursuing PCM in school), but I’d blame the destiny for my career in law. In my 12th Std. I fell seriously ill (was on bed-rest for almost 5 months) and could barely give my board exams. So naturally I could not even prepare for any competitive exams. During my bed-rest I had a lot of time to read which led me down the path of exploring various aspects of our lives including law. Fortunately or unfortunately, I used to ask a lot of questions, was very opinionated and liked arguing unnecessarily and that’s when someone jokingly suggested that I should pursue a career in law. And again, fortunately or unfortunately, I took that as advice. In hindsight, it turned out to be a good decision.
In the early stages of your career, you worked with various law firms specializing in Customs, Trade Remedial Measures, Service Tax, VAT, and CENVAT Credit. How did these experiences contribute to shaping your legal career?
Initially in my college days I was fortunate to have some opportunities of participating in International Trade Law moots which ultimately laid the foundation for my first job which was in International Trade Remedies. This experience was highly enriching as it got me firsthand experience in not just the legal aspects but also from a cost accounting perspective. To give you an insight – in order to avail these trade remedies, the ‘domestic industry’ (which is suffering at the hands of below cost imported products) was required to prove that there is an injury to it due to the imports. This required a lot of research and analysis into the cost of production (and export to India) for the exporters. Once we established that the imports into India were significantly below the cost, we used to prepare a memo for representing before the nodal agency (current Directorate General of Trade Remedies aka DGTR) mixing it up with the legal principle for determining the injury to the domestic industry. This paved the way for me to do “number-crunching” which most advocates dread.
Over time as I developed some understanding of the numbers, it became easier for me to get an entry into the world of taxes. That is when I got an opportunity in BMR Advisors, Mumbai, which was a consulting stint for me. Being a CA firm, BMR had a different way of working than a law firm and that was also an immensely enriching experience. While the work hours were erratic, it gave me exposure at a level which is incomparable to any. By this time I had become a full-time indirect tax professional getting to work on not less than 35 legislations (pre-GST era) across the country and having a list of marquee clients.
After gaining experience in several law firms in Delhi and Mumbai, you transitioned to corporate practice. What inspired this career shift, and how did the work culture differ between law firms and corporate environments?
While consulting gave me the most extensive exposure into indirect taxes, the work-life balance was not as great for me. Like many lawyers, I hit a burn-out phase, couldn’t keep up with long working hours and also faced some health issues. This led to an introspection and I took a sabbatical from work.
While I was taking a step back, I was also trying to figure out what I want in life as a whole, figuring out the bigger picture. This is when I got an offer from Godrej’s Corporate Legal Team. It was an exciting opportunity, primarily because it gave me an opportunity to continue my passion of practicing taxes and at the same time allowed me some work life balance. Even more interesting was the ability to work on different clientele, as the corporate team in Godrej used to cater to multiple companies under the banner of Godrej Industries and Allied Companies.
Though, there is a general perception that in-house lawyers have it easy when it comes to the work pressure or for that matter the gravity related to it, when I started working I realised the stark difference in the way you have to approach any problem sitting in-house vis-à-vis consulting. Consulting it seems (though I may be wrong) is more focussed and less business-driven. In-house practice requires much more involvement from a business perspective and even more important is a solution-based approach. I was no longer a mere legal consultant but a business partner too at Godrej.
One of the most stark difference in the way of working in an in-house role was the greater autonomy that I got. Unlike a consulting role there is a lesser hierarchy and one gets more room and time to give out a deliverable, although it did come with its own set of accountability. However, this played a pivotal role in shaping my career and the choices I made in the time to come.
Over the four year period that I worked with GILAC I not only got opportunities to work in indirect taxes but other areas as well like general corporate, regulatory/ licensing matters, environment, etc. This broadened my expertise in law and also provided me an insight into the myriad issues that a business has both at macro and micro levels. These four years trained me in being a better lawyer by thinking more like a business person and less like a lawyer. Godrej also gave me a lot of opportunities to travel and develop a network of some great individuals across the country, who helped me later in my career.
Following your role as Manager at Godrej Industries Limited and Allied Companies (GILAC), where you spent four years as part of the corporate legal team, you decided to establish your own practice. What motivated this move, and what challenges did you encounter during the transition?
GILAC and the Epiphany
The role as Manager, GILAC was a very fulfilling role. But everyone outgrows their work and work environment sooner or later, it is a natural progression. This came for me in the form of an epiphany: around 2017 when GST was about to be implemented, I was offered a few roles back to consulting (mostly from law firms and big-fours). However, at this stage I had already had experiences in both these kinds of work environments, I was aware of the ways and the work. This somewhere discouraged me from going back on the same track. However, I had a gut feeling, I knew it was time for me to make a move – where? I did not know.
This brought me to my next pivotal juncture. Between 2017 and 2018 I did my second round of soul searching, figuring out my place in the bigger picture. I had always wanted to set-up something of my own. But how would that happen, I had not a single clue about it. For almost a year, I prepared myself to take that leap of faith. With some guidance from my seniors and colleagues I closed down on litigation. But the road ahead was difficult.
Preparing for litigation
Like in a video game the difficulty keeps increasing with every level, so in life difficulty keeps increasing as one grows. In order to start my career in litigation I had prepared a lot. For me (so I thought) it had to be a calculated risk. Foremost, since it had already been 7 years for me in my career, I could not have relied on anyone else for my sustenance. Hence, I set up a capital fund for myself. Unfortunately, there are no PE/ VC Fund or angel investors in the litigation space.
Next I reduced my liabilities to almost nil, except for my day-to-day expenses. This meant that I could not afford a new car or buy a home for the next few years. This also meant that I live as frugal a lifestyle as possible. Having your own practice is like running a full-fledged business, alone. Club that up with living in the most expensive city (Mumbai) in this country, you have a recipe for disaster. So it was clear to me that the longer I could sustain myself on that capital I had saved, the better are my chances of succeeding. However, all of this was easier said than done.
Creating something of your own is like learning to become a potter from scratch. Even if you know what you need to do, there still is a huge learning curve. During the past 6 years of my independent practice, the one thing I have learnt is – you can never stop learning. There is learning both on the professional and personal front. As lawyers we see a lot of personal trauma and injury – nothing prepares us for the same. Most days, stakes are so high that even the stress level is off the roof. But rarely does anyone prepare you for the same. It is a journey we figure out on our own. For me personally meditation has done wonders and I always advise my juniors to practice daily to have a better life.
Game of Survival
A newly launched car in the market, trying to gain a market share, requires a good deal of marketing and promotion. But what do you do when you don’t have a budget for the same? Well, you don’t sell cars, you sell the next best thing. While starting out when I faced my fair share of rejections, I started taking up all kinds of matters (next best thing), because ultimately it was my own survival at stake. I was away from home, burning cash on a daily basis with limited to no support from elsewhere. Thus, from filing a Section 125 maintenance application to arguing Section 9 applications under IBC, I went for anything and everything. I was no longer just a tax lawyer, I had become an ‘advocate.’ In hindsight, it is this resilience and hunger for survival which ultimately defines one’s existence.
But more than this there is one more thing which played a pivotal role in my survival. It is generally said that it takes a whole village to raise a child, same goes with a law practice. It takes a whole lot of support from a great number of generous people to believe in you enough to give their cases in your hands. I guess I just got lucky enough to have too many of these kind people. Initially one does feel that it’s your fight and you have to fight it alone, but along the way you do find a few great companions having their own fights and looking for and even ready to lend support. Couple that with a little bit of hard-work and you have a recipe for something sustainable.
Only one more learning in my journey so far – “the only way humans have ever figured out of getting somewhere is to leave something behind.” This very important dialogue from a very famous movie, helped me realise my full potential. Most days I was too worried where my next sustenance is going to come from, but it was those really adventurous days when instead of thinking about my sustenance, I cared more about the kind of work that I was doing. I took risks in terms of letting go of work which didn’t fit well in my value system or even my aspirations, though it may have brought in some easy money. Thus, most days it was a mental fight with oneself, marred by self-doubt. How I overcame that, is the story of my life.
As a Counsel at the Bombay High Court, you handle a diverse range of litigation, including tax, corporate-commercial, IP, and constitutional matters for well-known clients. Could you share an example of the most challenging case you’ve worked on and the preparation involved?
It is sometimes said in Hindi: “Mauka milta har kisi ko hai, jazbaat ye hain ki mauke ki tayyari me aapne kya kiya?” (Opportunity will knock on your doors, it is up to you whether you’re ready for it or not) Something similar happened with me when a govt. agency approached me to file a Section 9 Application under IBC before the Hon’ble NCLT in Mumbai. The Application was to be filed against a company which had defaulted in payment of certain dues to the agency under a contract. Prima facie it was a simple case but the remedy for the same was not under Section 9. There were multiple disputes to the claim and I had already informed clients that chances are bleak. Still upon their insistence, we proceeded with the filing of the application and as was expected the same was dismissed.
As already highlighted earlier, there are a lot of generous people out there who are willing to bet on you. One such person was a counsel representing the agency, who despite losing the matter placed his faith in me and requested me to carry out a research as to what can be an alternative remedy. The matter involved an issue of high commerce involving thousands of crores of public money. I took that as a challenge and embarked on one of the longest running and almost awe inspiring litigation journey so far in my life.
Upon deeper study I realised that the agency had contracted with the company to collect some kind of taxes on its behalf and when the company defaulted, there were various coercive mechanisms available with the agency (as with any tax collector like Income Tax Dept. or GST, etc.) which it could have adopted to recover the same. The only hurdle was that the assets of the company against which such coercive recovery could be implemented were not within the jurisdiction of the agency.
A law researcher is like a seeker in a game of Quidditch (Harry Potter), one can’t lose sight of that Golden Snitch, that proposition of law. My focus was to extend the jurisdiction of the agency to the location of the Company and its assets. And the answer I found was in a 130 years old legislation which is still in force – which allowed the agency to request the collectors, in the jurisdiction where the Company and its assets lie, to act on its behalf for the recovery of any dues in the nature of ‘land revenue.’ I know, pretty colonial.
However, up until this point it was simply a prologue and the real battle started now. The actions of the agency were first not accepted by the collectors and were therefore marred by inaction. This led to rounds two of litigation seeking mandamus against the govt. functionaries. Once the govt. functionaries sprung to action upon directions by the Hon’ble Bombay High Court, the defaulting company challenged the validity of recovery. To be honest it was not an easy task to defend a 130 years old legislation which was based on colonial ideas. However, we still gave our best and obtained 4 back-to-back favourable orders (two of which even got reported). This took almost two years.
In the third round of litigation, the issues went up to the Hon’ble Supreme Court and here was a real test of the legal principles which had found some favour with various benches of the Hon’ble Bombay High Court. By this time we were in the third year of this matter’s litigation journey. Defending an already settled position (by a high court) never seemed like an uphill task like it did this time. Endless hours of conferences with not one but three senior counsels, endless volumes of research and from that was derived crisp arguments which should hopefully sit well with the Hon’ble Judges. Every time a senior counsel played the devil’s advocate, we had to recount our steps from the beginning, rethink the proposition of law from the start. However, the hard-work paid off and we got at least two favourable orders from the Hon’ble Supreme Court, upholding the law laid down by the Hon’ble Bombay High Court.
While this should have been a personal victory it felt more like providence. For the first time in my life I understood the meaning of this term which almost every well know lawyer in this country believes in.
But this was not the end; at the beginning of this year, we were back to square one, when just before the auction of the attached assets of the company could be carried out, the company underwent CIRP and Section 14 moratorium was put in place. Remember, we had already lost that battle in the very first round? The matter is now still sub-judice with various other dimensions being opened, including lifting and reverse lifting of corporate veils.
Although, there are other matters which have brought much more fame as well as remuneration to me than this matter, still I feel this matter deserves more to be mentioned in response to this questions than others.
What are the key challenges you have faced while dealing with compliance and disputes under highly specialized regulations like the Drugs & Cosmetics Act, the Insecticides Act, or the Legal Metrology Act?
Most specialised legislation are highly technical as they need to regulate various technical and scientific products. While dealing with such legislation one doesn’t just read the law but also about the products and the science relating to the same. This although is very challenging but it also very interesting and stimulating.
In most cases involving first time registration under such acts, there mostly is an overlap of various IP protection laws (mostly patents). One of the primary concerns of the clients in such cases becomes the protection of their IP when the idea is still undergoing IP registration process and yet it needs to be converted into a product-market fit (PMF), by obtaining relevant licensing and registrations.
Another important aspect of these legislations is the product liability. Under all the recent legislations like FSSAI, Drugs & Cosmetics, Insecticide & Fertilizers, Legal Metrology, etc. there is a concept of default attribution whereunder it is incumbent upon the companies to designate a specific officers who may be held responsible for various defaults which may occur under the Acts. At times the responsibility is even affixed on Managing or Executive Directors of the Company, creating a huge gap in terms of the risks. This is even more aggravated by the fact that while the licensing/ registration requirements under these Acts may be centralised at State/ Union level, but their enforcement is very decentralised. Meaning that when there is a default the same is mostly identified by an official generally at local level in some remote location. An apt example of this is the Maggie (Nestlé) case which started out in Barabanki District in Uttar Pradesh.
As India is growing as a global exporter, especially, in food and pharma sectors, the exposure has become manifold. A number of Indian companies from the pharma sector are on the edge of facing even class action suit due to product liability. In order to mitigate such exposure we are advising a lot of Indian companies to rely on insurances in the form of Commercial General Liability (CGL), Product Liability, D&O, and E&O policies to cushion their exposure.
You have provided advisory and litigation support to startups across various sectors, including Fin-Tech, Agri-Tech, and Edu-Tech. What specific challenges do Agri-Tech startups face in India?
Food security is one of the biggest growing concerns world over and the answer to the same lies in the marriage of technology with agriculture. A huge number of tech companies world over are working towards this much needed collaboration. The five primary aspects of agriculture – soil, water, seed, nutrition and protection – all have seen major technological research being undertaken to improve the quality and quantity of food. Food safety being the biggest concern, there is a lot of emphasis on sustainability and organic production.
Some of the major challenges that Indian Agri-Tech space is seeing in the current times:
- Funding: While innovation in a lab can be easily created, replicating it into a commercially successful product is much more difficult. Especially, keeping in mind that agriculture is dependent on various other factors like weather and irrigation. Thus, mere effectiveness of any product is not a guarantee for its commercial success. This result has caused the funding ecosystem to develop unevenly in the Agri-Tech space. A lot of sustainable and organic technologies are facing the brunt of it.
- IP Protection: Most start-ups working in this space lack the basic understanding of the IP protection laws. Further, since a lot of research is funded by the govt. (like through agriculture institutes (ICAR) or KVKs in collaboration with some private players) not enough attention is given to this aspect. One more deterrent is the affordability. Since agriculture in India is still very fragmented and individual driven, to make the newer products affordable is a challenge.
- Awareness: Making an Indian farmer learn about a new technology or product is likely talking to them through a grapevine. The conventional or rather traditional approaches have marred the efforts of Agri-tech companies in achieving a decent level of adaptability. While the govt. does come out with various schemes from time to time to promote such technologies (e.g. promotion of Integrated Pest Management, bio-gas production, etc.), the sector is so unorganised that it is still difficult to generate adaptability on a large scale and information moves mostly through the word of mouth.
- Regulatory: The next aspect is the regulatory issue which plagues the start-up space in general and agri space in particular. Since most of the products used in application of agriculture have a direct impact on the quality and safety of food, there are high levels of regulation. While regulation itself may not be as much of a problem, the difficulty arises in implementation of those regulations. There are primarily three reasons for the same:
- Lack of clarity in the laws themselves which lead to confusion. For example, the govt. keeps coming out with notifications making changes to various laws like Fertilizer Control Order in order to cover new and evolving bio-fertilizer and growth promoters. But most of the times such notifications are ad-hoc and badly worded leading to more confusion than clarification.
- Lack of understanding amongst the implementing agencies. As already highlighted, the enforcement of these laws is decentralised and at a local level where the resources implementing the same have limited understanding or knowledge about the product at times leading to harassment. Should this happen in a remote location, the problem is aggravated even more.
- Agriculture is a space which is already dominated by big corporations working in the chemical fertilizer and pesticide space which tend to try and retain their market share by adopting (not so apparent) predatory practices. This has led to suppression of innovation in sustainable technologies. Agri-tech start-ups coming out with newer and sustainable ways to deal with older problems, may result in displacement of already existing products, which may or may not be as profitable for existing players. However, there are no regulatory frameworks or for that matter incubatory eco-system to address the same.
What advice would you give to young lawyers and law students who aspire to excel in legal practice, based on your own journey and experiences?
This question treats me like a wise old man, which let me assure you, I am definitely not. In terms of knowledge & experience, I may very well be comparable to any other young lawyer. So the best I can share is my learnings:
Patience: The most important aspect of anyone’s life is patience. Whether it be litigation or any other form of employment patience forms the bedrock for achieving anything in life. Be it professional or personal, having patience makes a lot of things easier. But having patience itself is not an easy task, it definitely requires a concerted effort and making up your mind on a daily basis, convincing yourself every few moments.
Basics: So far as the field of law goes, there are certain basic concepts which every law student and any young lawyer should know. Unless you have your basics clear, you will always be far from excellence. I was fortunate to have amazing seniors in college to lead us along a path which started with learning the basics of law. Every student should know the laws on jurisprudence, interpretation of statutes and constitution at the least. Further, there are a body of rules in the form of legal methodology which come in handy whether you know the law itself or not. I always advise students and young professionals to always read a book called “Learning the Law” by Glanville Williams.
Reading: The next in the checklist is a habit of reading. I guess all known and reputed lawyers of the past have recommended this and so shall I. It is a sine qua non to have a regular reading habit. Not just about law but all aspects of life in general. Law is something which regulates every aspect of life and therefore, it doesn’t harm knowing about its various aspects. Bottom line – READ.
Compounding: Warren Buffet describes compounding as building a little snowball and rolling it down a very long hill. As the snowball rolls down the hill, it collects more and more snow until it becomes a huge snowball. This is not just true about money but also about knowledge and experience. As we progress in our careers, we see the effects of this compounding, when we keep practicing our skills and arts. But why am I discussing compounding? Because I see a lot of young lawyers running after easier ways to earn money, focussing more on remuneration than vocation. But what we fail to understand is that Vocation is that very long hill which gives results over time.
I believe the basics of life remain the same wherever we are, whatever we do. There may be a difference in pace and the scenery while we roll down that very long hill.
With such a diverse range of practice areas and an extensive clientele, how do you effectively manage the constant demands of your professional workload while maintaining a healthy work-life balance?
To be honest, I feel that I have not been able to manage my professional workload as effectively as I would want to. However, I must still credit a great team of colleagues who are there to support me and at times even lead me wherever necessary. The best way to manage my work that I have realised is to continue working with my junior colleagues, who grow out of their roles in my chamber. I continue to collaborate with them as peers and at the same time help them achieve their own aspirations.
In terms of the work-life balance, I feel the legal fraternity as a whole is not maintaining enough balance. But I still try to keep things simple by following these mantras:
- 10,000 steps a day
- 6 Hours of sleep a day
- 2.5 litres of water a day
- Half an hour of meditation a day; and
- At least 2 hours of family-time a day.
Again, easier said than done. Still we can all strive for it, although we can never achieve it – perfection and our tryst with it. I attribute much of my ability to maintain a balance to my family who not only hold me accountable but also support me through thick and thin.
Get in touch with Shreyas Shrivastava –
