This interview has been published by Anshi Mudgal and The SuperLawyer Team
How and when did you decide to become a lawyer and specialize in fraud detection, especially because this is something that influences almost all the communities, be it corporate, private, or public? It depends on which sector you are from.
So my Baba moved here from India in the 1960s over to England. And so I was born and raised here. So I grew up with British and American television. And I grew up watching a lot of television in the 1980s, so, you know, I’m 48 years old now.
And during that time, there were some films which were starting then, the Indiana Jones series of films, which was Harrison Ford. And there was an American investigation kind of program called Magnum P.I. with an actor called Tom Selleck. And I was really fascinated with history, with Indiana Jones, and unraveling what the truth of history was, what the true state of affairs was, and learning from things that have happened.
To try and piece together a jigsaw of a picture of what really has happened and investigation. So I started to get intrigued about just digging into things, looking into history, looking into working out what’s really going on. And at the same time, there were a few legal dramas coming around and again, US programs, a few UK programs.
And that just drove my interest. I have no other lawyers in the family. My Baba was an engineer, and my sister’s an accountant. And there were no lawyers in our family. And I just took an interest in it. I gradually found the opportunity to study law, and right after I qualified, I got interested in some of the criminal side, some of the commercial contract side.
And I always liked the idea of working out where there’s been wrongdoing in the workplace and wrongdoing to an individual or to a community and saying, right, how do we solve that? And how do we fix it? And it comes from watching programs like that in the 1980s.
So, sir, we can call you the first-generation lawyer who has made a big name for himself.
Way back in 2016, you parted ways with a large international law firm and decided to start your own law firm, Tenet. You have also won recognition for actually disrupting how law firms operate because what I have learned about Tenet is it operates without financial targets, billable hours, or office presentisms. How has this impacted the teams that have joined you, the way the client relationships have been built, and how you have made a whole name for yourself and the firm?
Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, if I go back to what took me to making those decisions, it was quite simple. So I worked at a large firm called DWF, an international firm, as you mentioned, and I was a partner there and I dealt with the civil fraud disputes and investigations team. That was my role. And I had a really nice time there. They are really wonderful companies to work for, a wonderful law firm to work for. And my boss who I worked for was really supportive, but at the time for me, I left because of burnout issues.
My children were young, and work was quite demanding, my Baba was quite ill, in and out of hospital. And I wanted to just have more time to myself, to really manage the family issues more than anything. But I thought I’d been working in this area of law since about 2006, 2007. So by that time, 10 years, I thought I’d go and be a consultant and I set up Tenet to deliver consultancy services, but work quickly found me and I needed lawyers to join.
And my wife, who’s not a lawyer, she’s a pharmacist, she said there are lots of women who’ve had children with their families. And they have left their place at work. Lawyers have left their place, but they can’t go back to work part time. And so a couple of my former colleagues were in that situation, and I contacted them about whether they could give me some support and just some extra hours to help me as work started to develop in the practice.
And this was all in 2016. I started it in March of 2016. And I realized a few things quite early on. I had probably a chip on both shoulders that I didn’t think you could get the best out of people by driving them towards numbers and taking them away from thinking about the solution of their clients.
And I also didn’t think you need to be seeing people in the office or always watching people to know that they were working. We’ve all grown up to be responsible adults. We’ve all invested many hours in our careers to get to a certain point. If we want to do well in our careers, that requires self-discipline.
It doesn’t require someone telling you what to do. So I developed the concept around let’s have a firm without targets, without presenteeism. So it’s a traditional litigation law firm. We’ll have billable hours, financial targets, before COVID everyone would be in the office. Our business as usual was to come to the office if you need to, work where you want to, work when you need to, around the client’s demands.
But just get the work done. Let’s not worry about the numbers. And what we did was we built a model, which was broadly people first, then the product, and then the profit. And what that means is, if we get the best for our people, ahead of our clients, and create an environment where they’re not distracted.
The only focus they have is the solution for the clients. They’re not distracted by, have I made my numbers this week, this month, today. They’re only focused on sorting out the solution. They’re not driven by getting profit out of a client. So they focus on the product and you get the product right. The amazing thing that happens is people recommend you and refer you.
So we developed that model of no targets because it gave the best chance for, I guess, creating the art of what’s possible for a client. If we just focus on sorting out that issue for a client, anything is possible. If we start to think about ourselves as part of that journey for a client, it’s a distraction.
So my job here is to make the best environment for people, so they can get the best for the clients. And then hopefully life takes care of itself. And we make enough money along the way to be safe and everyone’s secure. Culturally it’s been really fascinating because lawyers are institutionalized in most of the law firms.
You probably have experienced it where you think you’ll have lawyers who have a certain number of hours done in a month and then they’ll be asked by their management, what’s your recovery plan? You are behind track. And so what could that lead to? It could lead to bad behaviors. Do you spend more time on work than you need to?
I’m not saying that happens, but it’s a risk. Do you hold on to work? Because you need to make up the hours, but that work is getting delayed if it was put in the hands of a colleague. So the client could have their work done quicker if you just passed it over. Well, if you’ve got a target and you hold on to it yourself, you delay the work product for the client.
So there are lots of lateral benefits, but for the people themselves, it meant they could just be trusted to get on with their job. And we all just want to be lawyers, don’t we? We just want to be lawyers. And so it just allows people to be lawyers. Yeah, I guess that’s broadly how we’ve done it.
Sir, keeping all that in mind, you already have built a name for yourself, but in a very specialized field of fraud, and especially the fraud cases, they involve sophisticated scheming and all those processes. With the rise of the digital space, with the rise of crypto and everything, how have you seen fraud evolve in the cyberspace and what kind of investigations or cautions have you suggested your clients, especially the ones who are HNIs or who are in fintech or who are SMEs and nowadays startups as well?
So, I mean, we have to go a step back when we think about fraud because one person’s definition of fraud is not the same as somebody else’s. And when you think about cyber, people talk about cybercrime and cyber fraud or cryptocurrency fraud, where there’s not legitimate cryptocurrency, but ultimately cyber or digital age.
Or digital mechanisms for committing fraud are just that—they’re just the mechanism for committing the fraud. It’s not the fraud itself. The fraud isn’t cyber, the fraud isn’t crypto, it’s the mechanism used. So the first thing is going back to what is fraud. For some people, fraud is very black and white.
It’s misappropriation, it’s diverting assets, it’s breaching duties. For others, it can be more subtle. So, for example, you could have a very simple scenario that you’re in a restaurant with your family or friends, and at the end of the evening, an employee at that restaurant brings out the bill. And if they bring out the bill, and then you notice on that bill that they’ve forgotten to charge you for a drink or some food.
And I ask people in training sessions. How many people would own up and would confess that they’ve been undercharged? And typically about 30 percent of people will say they would own up in the restaurant. And then I ask people, look, you know, just this definition of fraud, if your employer overpaid you and it was obviously a mistake, like the restaurant, how many of you would own up?
And everybody owns up. And then you have to delve into why, and people don’t realize that taking money from your employer when they’ve overpaid you by mistake or taking the benefit of the restaurant food when they’ve undercharged you are both the same species of fraud. It’s called unjust enrichment, but they’re both fraudulent events, but people’s interpretation of fraud may be in one instance with the employer, but not with the restaurant.
So your first concept is understanding, you know, fraud is about interpretation. And then that’s something that has to be a constant in your mind as a lawyer dealing with fraud is how people interpret that because as we’ve moved to this digital age, as you talked about,
We are driving all our communications and we’re driving all of our purchases, acquisitions, investments, thought processes around how to utilize our money online, and how we engage with people, how people sell things to us, or how people invite us to invest.
It comes down to our interpretation of fraud. What is that area of gray? If someone is optimistic about selling you an investment product, that crypto will get you a certain level of returns. Are they being fraudulent or are they being optimistic in telling you something to invite you to invest? So you have to think about how you interpret fraud?
Because from the recipient’s point of view, you have to really be quite clear, the communications you want digitally. What you’re told digitally before you make a decision. Crypto space and cyberspace is really interesting.
So in the digital world, now we’re in the situation were certainly around banking and fintechs, all our transactions are online. So in the UK, we have payment services, firms, fintechs, main retail banks. And there is new law that came in in October of last year, 2024, which makes it almost compulsory for banks to refund domestic transaction victims of fraud, if they’ve been tricked into making a transfer.
And that law will probably spread as an idea around other Commonwealth countries in time. But we’re driven to do everything online. We’re accustomed to doing everything online in this digital age. And we don’t have enough digital literacy, certainly for the elder generation. And the younger generation think too quickly because they have too much digital access.
So they don’t have time to stand back and think, is this behavior consistent? Am I being tricked? Is this too good to be true? So let’s take cyber. You mentioned cyber and I’m sorry, I’m giving quite long answers, but I’m trying to pick up all the points you raised. In the UK, there are three, sorry, crypto.
There are three types of cryptocurrency you can think about and being duped on or being defrauded on in the UK. The first level is unlikely to be tricked. That’s where you’ve got a provider, a cryptocurrency exchange platform that is regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority in the UK for money laundering purposes.
They are a legitimate enterprise engaging in selling and purchasing cryptocurrency. You are likely to be safe in their hands. The only risk is the fluctuation of the market. Then you have those cryptocurrency exchanges, which are in other countries. They are legitimate in that they are exchanges, but they are not regulated.
So it’s slightly more loose and it’s very hard to recover from overseas. And then you have those, which are just smoke and dust. Those criminals that create the impression through very good digital tools that they have a platform for you to invest in. But the platform doesn’t exist.
It’s all smoke and dust. It’s all fresh air, and your money is gone. And with any fraud situation, be it in procurement, be it with employees, be it with investments, be it with cryptocurrency, unless you educate yourself about what you’re about to invest in or the party you’re about to contract with, and really understand it yourself and verify independently, you’re having more fraud.
And that’s the problem. The digital is the biggest enabler of fraud now, because it is so good at imitating legitimate organizations and people and transactions. And we are as humans, we’re short of time now, we’re all time poor. So we make transactions quicker without thinking, you put those two together, and you’ve got more friction and more risk.
So for us, there’s a lot to unravel every time we get an investigation because there are
so many moving parts. You have to check what’s real and what isn’t, and the growing number of fraudsters playing with these new technologies, it’s harder and harder to prevent.
As a business, as a law firm, we are constantly looking out for those kinds of things. For instance, we work with financial institutions, and it’s really important for us to make sure we understand everything behind what’s happening, everything behind the platform, everything behind the person and always verifying every step of the way. That’s how we go about it.
At Tenet, you specialize in this particular niche area. Let’s say, we would like to understand if new entrants are interested in this field and how they might navigate their way into the fraud and investigations space. Since you have mastered this area, how would you suggest they move forward, perhaps with a checklist? This could benefit learners, especially in India, who may be looking to qualify for SQ exams and practice in the UK. Is it possible for Indian lawyers to work in this field in the UK, or is there another path they can take to learn and practice there?
Yes, on both counts. So, to anyone interested in fraud, I always say it’s important to build a foundation. Whatever you do in life, it should be something that interests you. It could be fraud, sports, or any subject at all. Once you have found something you are passionate about, you need to invest in yourself. This means dedicating time to learn and surround yourself with people involved in that subject.
In the UK, fraud is not just limited to law. There’s a whole financial crime compliance and counter-fraud community across the UK, Europe, Asia, the US, and Africa, dealing with various aspects of financial crime—illicit funds, wildlife trafficking, people trafficking, money laundering, and fraud investigations. This is the ecosystem I love and work in.
When I started showing an interest in this subject in 2006 or 2007, I joined a charity called the Fraud Advisory Panel in England. Anyone worldwide can become a member of this charity. It works to promote best practices for countering and combating fraud and financial crime. There are other organizations like the London Fraud Forum, the Midlands Fraud Forum, and more, but the Fraud Advisory Panel is where I focused my attention.
By becoming a member, I learned about events in the industry, which could be anywhere in India, Asia, or wherever. This allowed me to connect with people who were passionate about fraud. I volunteered countless hours and met senior people from the big four accountancy firms, PwC, and law enforcement. They began trusting me with cases, and that helped me build my career.
So, for anyone entering this field, I recommend joining charity organizations, volunteering, and surrounding yourself with people who have experience in fraud. In the UK, there are many firms that specialize in fraud, and even as a foreign-qualified lawyer, there are opportunities here. Fraud has existed for centuries and will continue to do so, requiring people who are dedicated to unraveling it.
I’d like to ask about your role as a trustee director for the Fraud Advisory Panel, and how public awareness plays a role in combating fraud. You also frequently speak in the media, so what impact do awareness programs have, particularly in your area of work?
Education plays a crucial role in combating fraud. Much like road safety, if we understand the risks and threats, we can be prepared. Awareness about fraud helps people recognize potential risks and avoid falling victim.
I’ve been involved in media campaigns about fraud for years. One such campaign started in 2016, advocating for a law that requires UK banks to refund customers tricked into making transactions to fraudsters. After eight years of media engagement, the law was introduced in 2024. This law was necessary because, years ago, people didn’t think fraud would happen to them. Now, fraud and cybercrime account for 38% of all crime in the UK, though only 1% of the policing budget is allocated to economic crime.
Raising awareness is critical because people tend to think fraud won’t affect them. If we can educate the public, businesses, and government bodies about fraud risks, we can help mitigate the harm. In India, for instance, fraud awareness is still in its early stages, especially when it comes to cybercrimes. It’s an ongoing challenge everywhere, but awareness is the key to fighting it.
Unfortunately, fraud is still under-discussed in India. People may have heard of cybercrimes, but awareness has not fully caught on. This conversation itself is vital for combating the issue. Moving on, you studied law at King’s College, London. How did your college experience shape your thoughts on awareness and your approach to building a community through your work?
King’s College London was a privilege. I wish I had worked harder, but it definitely shaped my understanding of the law. Before law school, I thought law might be dry, but I soon realized it’s about interpretation and human behavior. At King’s, I found that law is not just about rules but understanding the actions behind those rules.
Criminology and tort law were key subjects that sparked my interest in fraud. It was here that I learned how criminal behavior can influence business conduct, particularly in fraud investigations. The diverse international student body at King’s also showed me how law transcends borders, which shaped my global perspective on legal practice.
After qualifying in 2002, I spent 14 years in private practice before founding Tenet. For me, specializing in one area was important, so I chose fraud and financial crime. I decided to focus exclusively on fraud investigations, disputes, and compliance, helping individuals and businesses resolve issues stemming from dishonesty.
Our firm, Tenet Compliance & Litigation, isn’t huge—only 11 people—but we’re highly focused. We’re recognized for our expertise in fraud and financial crime, which is why we win most of our work through recommendations. We make it relatable to clients, focusing on their concerns rather than just the financial aspect.
Cultural aspects certainly influence change, and it’s clear your diverse college experience helped shape your perspective. Sir, outside of work, you are also a guitarist and into fitness. How do you balance these hobbies with your work, and how do you encourage your colleagues to do the same?
Well-being is crucial. It’s not always easy to balance work and personal life, but I encourage my team to have hobbies and time for themselves. We have a “family first” policy, meaning if something comes up for family, you take care of it. I believe in making time for family, especially during the years when children are young.
For me, fitness is a priority. I exercise three or four times a week, and I know that staying healthy improves my performance at work and at home. While I may not always have time to play the guitar or exercise as much as I’d like, I believe it’s important to have hobbies outside of work.
I encourage my team to do the same. If you want your people to perform at their best, they need to have time for themselves. It’s hard to find that time, but it’s essential. We work to live, not live to work. It’s a reminder to experience life, see new places, enjoy theater or movies with friends, and take moments to appreciate life outside work.
In the end, if you’re not living your life, work will lose its meaning. The balance between work and personal life is key to both professional and personal growth.
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